Podcast 131 – Circle Orboros Full Faction Review

And we are done Circle! Four and a half hours of podcasting pleasure for you to peruse when possible!

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0 thoughts on “Podcast 131 – Circle Orboros Full Faction Review

  1. Dear Combosmite,

    First I love you guys and really enjoy all your WM/H activities. I try to catch every podcast and participate on all the streams. Please keep it up!

    I do want to offer some direct feedback on the News part of the Circle episode. In short I think you gave too short a shift to the PP announcement they are going to address Skorne and that Skorne players are whiners.

    Before I go on, this is not an attack but just direct feedback. Also don’t mis construe this to be I don’t like PP (one Cygnar poster spent about three pages trying to undress me for this viewpoint). I do like the game….not quite as much….but am working on it!

    I’ve been working to bury my ire over MK3 as I’m not happy with the current edition. My general view is they changed the game to reinvigorate product sales and made drastic changes to bring up sales of other parts of the product line. I see this as a business move and a calculated gamble by PP. My gripe with this is they changed how models and entire factions played w/o sufficient play-testing and in a very non-player friendly fashion.

    So put on a customer hat for a second and not a player hat. PP is a private company that rely’ on Mini sales to stay in business. As a customer I have a perfect right to not be happy with the changes and give PP respectful feedback they/we don’t like the changes. There rely on just being happy with the product to continue to stay in business.

    This is how I view the Skorne feedback to PP – to me all evidence shows PP didn’t make Skorne viable. Also from a customer perspective if they are not happy with the product then they are not happy.

    Now one of the good things here is PP did respond and admit they didn’t do a good job. This is a very good thing and I think unprecedented by PP. Having a real feedback loop is good for us customers.

    So I don’t mind you make fun of Skorne players, but would like you to consider another POV on this.

    Cheers!

    Mike

    Sent from my iPhone

    >

    • Hey Mike! Thank you for your feedback! And thank you so much for being so respectful and careful with your wording. Don’t worry, we’re okay with criticism (but constructive criticism is the best!).

      Both Nick and I feel that Skorne is in an okay place, power-wise. I think both Skorne and Cryx *changed* the most with Mk3, specifically that they now play very, very differently than they did previously. But that’s not to say they’re not good, just different. Towards that end, I feel that Skorne players are saying “My Faction used to do X really well, it no longer does X well, and therefore it sucks”.

      The counter is that both Minions and Retribution were once in the position Skorne players now claim they are in: behind the overall power curve relative to the other Factions. And yet competitive players would still win tournaments with both those Factions in Mk2, *and*, perhaps more importantly, the communities tended not to complain about this fact.

      Now, does Skorne have a right to complain? I honestly don’t know. I don’t play them, and Kassem is a monster with Skorne so we certainly haven’t seen a local decline in Skorne wins, but that’s a localized phenomenon. If Trevor from Chain Attack says Skorne is a struggle to play, I believe him, but at the same time I suspect that it’s Skorne is a struggle to play the way they used to play.

      But here’s my concern: Cryx players used to complain *constantly* that their Faction was underpowered in Mk2, and that Gaspy2 had been “nerfed to oblivion”. To me, those are insane comments, and I felt confident that PP would view them as such. But PP has now shown its audience that they will, in fact, listen to such claims (whether or not they reflect reality). So Skorne gets buffed up in this errata: next, Legion all complains. So Legion gets buffed. Then Circle complains… then everyone complains… and so on.

      Will it happen? I hope not. I remain confident that by-in-large PP does a good job of balance between Factions and within Factions (although internal balance needs more work, in my opinion). I’m also convinced that PP’s in-house playtesters play a very, very different style of game from the rest of us (read some of the old Mk2 batreps in “No Quarter” to see what I mean. Some of their play decisions border on outright insanity).

      TL;DR version: I worry this sets a dangerous precedent, but I have trusted PP thus far and they’ve done a great job. I’m willing to trust in them again.

      • My thoughts on Skorne right now is that the very top of Skorne’s power curve lines up pretty well with the middle to upper-middle of Cygnar and Khador. The game is well balanced enough that that means if a Skorne player only takes options from the top of the faction, and is willing to put in a little extra work, they can compete with any other faction.

        That makes Skorne playable, and I’m still having a lot of fun with them, but it’s a little galling to feel limited to 3 or so units and 5 or so beasts (barring specific ‘caster synergies) right off the bat. That’s my main gripe with Skorne right now, and it’s the sort of thing that PP can probably fix with some pretty minor modifications. I’m not sure what they’re planning, but I suspect that the weakest models and support pieces will all get small buffs (which will make the middle-of-the-road stuff more appealing too).

        PP did pretty well with Errata in MkII, and I think they’re probably going to do pretty well with MkIII too. PP redesigned the game with all new point values and abilities, and did it for 12 factions at once. I’d be shocked if everything came out fine on the first try. I don’t think the coming changes are purely a reaction to the Skorne community’s whining (which I’ll admit is copious :P). PP released MkIII into the wild back in June, and they, along with the player base, have been keeping a critical eye on it. They knew going into the release that there would be imbalances they’d need to address, and as it happens, Skorne needing to work a little too hard to win is one of those. PP is acknowledging this, as are plenty of non-Skorne players.

        Small buffs to Skorne as they are right now will make the game more enjoyable for everyone, and I’m not worried about some kind of slippery-slope errata-based codex creep unless the changes to Skorne are a lot bigger than I think they’ll be.

      • Excellent feedback Glasskin. And I agree.

        My biggest complaint with each Faction is that there seems to be fewer viable warcasters in Mk3 than there was in Mk2. Cygnar, which again in my opinion is the front-edge of the power curve, still only has 3-5 really strong warcasters (Haley2, Sloan, Caine2, Stryke2) and a bunch that are obviously worse than those few but still playable. I really hope the upcoming errata fixes that issue with each Faction.

        I also agree that if Skorne gets a few more buffs than any other Faction in the coming errata, I’d be okay with it. They are playable, they’re not trash. But having more options is always a good thing, and it makes for more dynamic tournaments and games!

  2. Thanks Mike and Glasskin for the feedback.

    Your points of view are reasonable. More than anything I’m just sick of all the complaining. Every other thread on the main forums turns into a discussion on Skorne power level and it’s driving me insane.

    I think the complaining has gotten worse since PP had made it clear they are listening to players and considering their opinions. This is a good thing but it also empowers people to try to be the squeaky wheel and I’ve reached my limit with the negativity.

    I’ve started seeing more negativity from Legion players since PP announcement about Skorne and I’m worried everybody is going to start “whining to win” as it’s been dubbed by some people.

    Is Skorne low on the power curve? Probably. People aren’t stupid.
    Are they playable competitively? Without a doubt.
    Are they complaining about too much? Hells ya.

  3. Hi guys,
    Thank you so much for all your faction review, I really like knowing what I’m playing against, and those podcast help me with that point big time.
    I had 2 things to say about the circle podcast.
    First, during the cast, you guys seem to confuse powerful charge with brutal charge. For all model with powerful charge, you said that they have +2 P+S. If I’m not mistaken, it’s only on attack roll, and not on damage roll right ?
    Second, you asked the community about the kaya1 feat. I think you just saw the ‘kaya’ part of it (ie casting more spells). I think that one more leeching phase, and thus permitting your beast to go insanley high on fury on feat turn, and not frenzy the next one is where your money is really. I would really consider putting 0 additionnal fury, just leeching. I don’t know if that makes the model better, but I wanted to share my thoughts on this one.
    Thanks again guys ! Keep up the great work
    spoon.

    • Hey Spoon! Thank you for the kind comments and the corrections!

      The “Powerful/Brutal” charge thing is 100% me. Nick tends to be way more on the ball on that… I just keep thinking “Brutal” means “does more damage”, and “Powerful” means “does more damage”… forgetting that one of them increases accuracy, not damage!

      And also thank you for the feedback on Kaya1. She’s an interesting warlock, and I suspect she’d be top-tier in any other Faction. As it is, she’s not bad.

      I still like Kaya2 better, I think.

      Anyway! Thanks for getting in touch, and for listening! Really glad you found it useful!

  4. Hey guys, I started listening this podcast over a month ago. It sat in my browser ever since. Just finished listening and will finally close the tab ;). You guys just kept pulling me back! Awesome work. Keep it up and I will definitely look into your other podcasts as well. I love how you communicate extensive knowledge and information with ease. You are very easy and satisfying to listen to.

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